匈牙利的佩特尔·马吉尔是谁，以及他是如何推翻维克多·奥尔班的非自由民主的
Who is Hungary’s Péter Magyar and how he overturned Vi…
Hungarian political scientist Zsolt Enyedi speaks to The Conversation Weekly podcast about how Viktor Orbán lost power to Péter Magyar and what the result means for the European Union.
匈牙利政治学家兹索尔特·恩耶迪在《对话周刊》播客中谈到维克多·奥尔班是如何将权力拱手让给佩特尔·马吉尔的，以及这一结果对欧盟意味着什么。
The day after Péter Magyar ousted Victor Orbán as prime minister of Hungary, he gave a combative press conference. He spoke in Hungarian, but was talking to the world – and particularly to Europe.
在佩特尔·马吉尔推翻维克多·奥尔班担任匈牙利总理的第二天，他举行了一场充满攻击性的新闻发布会。他用匈牙利语讲话，但实际上是向全世界——尤其是欧洲——讲话。
“We will do everything to restore the rule of law, plural democracy, and the system of checks and balances,” Magyar said, calling his election a historic moment for Hungary.
“我们将尽一切努力恢复法治、多元民主和制衡体系，”马吉尔说，称他的当选对匈牙利来说是一个历史性的时刻。
During 16 years in power, Orbán and his Fidesz party managed to take control of many of Hungary’s levers of power, from the judiciary to state-owned media, and weakened the institutions that could keep them accountable. Orbán liked to call it an illiberal democracy.
佩特尔·马吉尔在罢黜维克多·奥尔班成为匈牙利总理的第二天，举行了一场充满对抗性的新闻发布会。他用匈牙利语讲话，但实际上是在对全世界——尤其是对欧洲——讲话的。
Magyar also urged the Hungarian president to move swiftly to install him as prime minister, before any more damage could be done by Orbán’s loyalists. “We know that people have been destroying documents, just like in the old communist age, that shredders are working full time,” he said.
“我们将尽一切努力恢复法治、多元民主和制衡体系，”马吉尔说，称他的当选对匈牙利来说是一个历史性时刻。
In this episode of The Conversation Weekly podcast, Zsolt Enyedi, professor of political science at the Central European University and an expert in Hungarian politics, explains how Magyar, a former member of Fidesz, manage to beat Orbán, his former boss.
在执政的16年间，奥尔班和他的“执政党”设法控制了匈牙利许多权力支点，从司法系统到国有媒体，并削弱了可以对其进行问责的机构。奥尔班喜欢称之为“非自由民主制”。
Magyar’s moment
马吉亚尔还敦促匈牙利总统迅速任命他为总理，以免奥尔班的追随者造成更多损害。“我们知道有人正在销毁文件，就像在旧共产主义时代一样，碎纸机正在全天候工作，”他说。
Enyedi describes Magyar as a centre-right figure with some nationalistic attributes, who is a bit eurosceptic with “some reservations against progressive way of speaking”. However, Enyedi says Magyar changed since first entering politics in 2024, when he gave an explosive interview criticising Orbán’s regime.
在本期《对话周刊》播客中，中欧大学政治学教授、匈牙利政治专家兹索尔特·恩耶迪解释了，飞德斯的前成员马贾尔是如何击败他的前老板奥尔班的。
Back then he was “clearly someone who reproduced many of the ideological panels of this Orbánist regime, but he was very critical of the corruption that exists in the regime”. He was likened to a clean, young version of Orbán himself.
马贾尔的时刻
Since then, Magyar has spent two years travelling around Hungary speaking to people across the country on the campaign trail. “He started to understand better the enormous harm done by the Fidesz regime, and he also became more pro-European in his rhetoric, embracing the democratisation agenda,” says Enyedi.
埃尼迪将马贾尔描述为一位具有一定民族主义色彩的中间偏右人物，他有点欧洲怀疑论，对“进步的言论方式”持“一些保留意见”。然而，埃尼迪说，自2024年首次涉足政坛以来，马贾尔已经发生了变化，当时他发表了一篇批评奥尔班政权的爆炸性采访。
Magyar is now able to “provide the lowest common denominator for all pro-democratic forces,” says Enyedi. “In that sense, he’s more than simply representative of one political ideological current.”
那时，他“显然是这个奥尔班主义政权许多意识形态阵营的复制者，但他对政权中存在的腐败非常批判”。他被比作奥尔班本人一个干净、年轻的版本。
As European leaders breathe a sign of relief at Magyar’s victory, Enyedi says although Europe has not gained an “enthusiastic partner”, he will be a much more constructive one. “Partly out of conviction, partly because he needs EU money and he needs that money soon. So he cannot play games. He has to make a deal with the EU leadership.”
从那时起，马贾尔花了两年时间在匈牙利各地巡游，与全国各地的民众交谈。埃尼迪说：“他开始更好地了解菲德斯政权造成的巨大危害，而且他的言辞也变得更亲欧，拥抱了民主化议程。”
Listen to the interview with Zsolt Enyedi on The Conversation Weekly podcast. This episode was written and produced by Gemma Ware, Mend Mariwany and Katie Flood. Mixing by Eleanor Brezzi and theme music by Neeta Sarl.
埃尼迪说，马贾尔现在能够“为所有亲民主力量提供最低公分母”。“从这个意义上说，他不仅仅代表一个政治意识形态潮流。”
Newsclips in this episode from CNN, CRM News, euro news and Partizán.
当欧洲领导人对马贾尔的胜利松了一口气时，埃尼迪说，尽管欧洲没有获得一个“热情的伙伴”，但他会是一个更具建设性的伙伴。“部分是出于信念，部分是因为他需要欧盟的资金，而且他很快就需要这些资金。所以他不能玩游戏。他必须与欧盟领导层达成协议。”
Listen to The Conversation Weekly via any of the apps listed above, download it directly via our RSS feed or find out how else to listen here. A transcript of this episode is available via the Apple Podcasts or Spotify apps.
收听Zsolt Enyedi在The Conversation Weekly播客上的采访。本集节目由Gemma Ware、Mend Mariwany和Katie Flood撰写和制作。混音由Eleanor Brezzi完成，主题音乐由Neeta Sarl提供。
Zsolt Enyedi has received EU Horizon funding.
本集节目中的新闻剪辑来自CNN、CRM News、euro news和Partizán。
Listen to The Conversation Weekly via any of the apps listed above, download it directly via our RSS feed or find out how else to listen here. A transcript of this episode is available via the Apple Podcasts or Spotify apps.
可以通过上述任何应用程序收听The Conversation Weekly，也可以通过我们的RSS源直接下载，或点击此处了解其他收听方式。本集节目的文字记录可在Apple Podcasts或Spotify应用程序上获取。
Zsolt Enyedi has received EU Horizon funding.
Zsolt Enyedi获得了欧盟地平线基金资助。
